On one side of the isle, we have the all returned crew, who, no matter what evidence is presented ( even from their golden boy John McCain see below ) they go into immediate denial that any one was left behind,. then character assassinate any one who disagrees. They throw their medals around as a way to intimidate those who would go against their grain.
Freedom of speech and expression is something I appreciate and I will not allow any one, no matter where they been or what they have done rob me of that freedom through intimidation. PERIOD
On the other side of the isle we have the nuts... good men who believe in the promise that "No Man will ever be intentionally left behind". The Nuts and weirdo's are a persistent lot and will not relent until all are home or in American soil. This miffs the all returned crew to the point that they will even try and disparage their own, other Nam PoW's who broke away from the circle and investigated. Col. Ted W. Guy was one of the nuts with guts, and this site is dedicated to his mission, a mission he started before he died, "Just say NO to John McCain". In items immediately following you will see the attempt to brand Col. Ted Guy a nut. These messages below were written between Nam PoWs and I. I have the originals with header information in tact .
But first............
Lets Talk about Medal Thumpers and Fear Mongers vs. Heroes
Medal Thumpers & Fear Mongers:
Once again a group of foolish Americans has been resurrected that I call medal thumpers and fear mongers who want you to pay attention to them. According to some, unless you were where they have been, you have no right to be vocal with your opinion and they raise their medals that proclaim their honor and hero status to intimidate.
WRONG!
The freedom of speech is the single most important political right of ALL American citizens.
The importance of free speech as a basic and valuable characteristic of western society cannot be underestimated nor undermined by medal thumpers nor fear. The United States is now a place where people's unfettered freedoms are by and large in retreat already. To watch those who fought abet in undermining one of our basic inalienable rights says a lot about the perpetrators. Fortunately, its not a majority, but a minority with their own agenda. I, as 1st an American Citizen born under The Stars & Stripes who has a family history of military service, and 2nd as a Native American "blood" (not skin) can not in good conscience sit back and see either the medal thumpers nor the fear mongers prevail in their attemt to have one become part of a herd of "sheep" and blahhh blahhh their logic when a majority of our true heroes stand silent. Yes, we have many, way too many heroes in our nation who go without recognition. Some who own medals of honor, but you wouldn't know it, cause
they don't talk about it. Others who ware a medal of honor second to none, their disability that is permanent and something they live with for the rest of their lives. One of these heroes of mine is outlined in a story below. Be assured, and thank God for men like him, he is one of the true silent majority of those who are heroes you may never hear about.
In fine, unless we ensure the liberties, then we deny the essence of what we ultimately stand for and are therefore no better than those to whom we are opposed.
Or as Voltaire has been paraphrased, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
When freedom of speech is restricted, rumors, unfair criticisms, comments and downright falsehoods are circulated by word of mouth. These have a habit of spreading across the length and breadth of the country through conversation and surreptitiously circulated writings.
Without free speech elections would have no meaning at all. The sine qua non of a democratic society is freedom of speech.
Freedom of speech involves toleration of a great deal of nonsense, and even of matters which are in bad taste. Bad Taste?: Lets look at what said about Col. Ted W. Guy, USAF, (RET), former NAM PoW after he died as an example. If some one did not have the freedom to present the truth, these lies would have gone un-checked.
The same group of medal thumpers, the "you can't criticize me cause you are not a former PoW" clan groupies, grow horns and fiery tongues if you mention any thing factual John McCain is ( and should be ) answerable for. They also resort to FEAR; some are their own fears they want to project on you while some are fear tactics to herd those they consider to be sheep into the barnyard of their candidate.
What they cant see: Those attempting to resort to such tactics to stifle presentation of an opposing view give the impression that reason and logic are not on their side.
Madison's version of the speech and press clauses, introduced in the House of Representatives on June 8, 1789, provided: ''The people shall not be deprived or abridged of their right to speak, to write, or to publish their sentiments; and the freedom of the press, as one of the great bulwarks of liberty, shall be inviolable.'
To usurp this principle of Liberty is a slap in the face of every name written on any war memorial dedicated to those true heroes, who gave up their lives for this freedom. May they rest in peace.
A message to John McCain and his Groupies: Defamation consists of a publication of a statement of alleged fact which is false and which harms the reputation of another person. I will waive any jurisdictional requirements if you feel any thing posted at eagles nest II is not "FACT" but defamation and you feel froggy and want to sue.
As was said to John Kerry, "Bring It On" 2 TIM 1:7 "For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind."
The FEAR of BO being elected has no basis in my home.
My trust is in His Word first, then my fellow and sister patriots who will not let our Union perish.
Finally, information here came from the "a heroes mouth" It's not hear-say, it's fact.. McCain "Sang" for the North Vietnamese", was treated in a hospital where no other PoW was treated and NO ONE was there that was PoW when he gave information in that hospital (( that was reserved for NVA Officers )) to an enemy for medical treatment. Documents are here Thanks to Col. Ted Guy and Gerald 'Beak' Atkinson, CDR USN (Ret.)
And thats the way it is..
Visit: GOP Tea Party and join the real Revolution to maintain our nation: -> Click Here <-
According to The Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs - Democratic Senator John Kerry of Massachusetts, the chairman, said the committee had gathered information indicating that "some Americans remained alive in Indochina after Operation Homecoming" in 1973, when North Vietnam handed back 591 prisoners. ( Remember Kerry? - He was for it - before he was against it!) and found proof of PoW/MIA's in SEA before he (paper shred the evidence) couldn't find any?
Major General Oleg Kalugin, former head of counterintelligence for the KGB, who was forced to resign in 1990 after he became one of the agency's most truculent public critics told several U.S. news organizations, including the Los Angeles Times and the New York Daily News, that the KGB questioned "at least" three American POWs in Vietnam in 1978, five years after Hanoi said it had returned all living prisoners.
Republican, Bob Smith of New Hampshire, wanted to travel to Moscow to ask Boris Yeltsin, leader of the Russian republic at the time,, to open the KGB files on POWs.
A TIME-CNN poll conducted by Yankelovich Clancy Shulman, 60% of those questioned said they believe there are still live Americans in Vietnam.
Eugene ("Red") McDaniel, a retired Navy captain who headed the American Defense Foundation and its educational arm, the American Defense Institute, came to the POW issue the hard way -- he was once one himself. After his release in 1973, he resumed his military career, ending up at the Pentagon, where he concluded that "the U.S. government would never do the job" of tracking down the POWs who he became convinced were left behind.
John McCain a staunch supporter of "the all returned" crowd sliped and stated ( part of the record ) "McCain has said again and again that he has seen no "credible" evidence that more than a tiny handful of men might have been alive in captivity after the official prison return in 1973."
(( What if one of those in his hand was your Father, brother, uncle, or other? ))
The following is a reply to Paul E. Galanti Commander, U.S. Navy (Retired) former PoW also known as "The Attitude Adjuster". A man I respect for "Returning With Honor" despite McCain. I never got an answer from Paul about the "Tiny Handful of men" McCain referenced, nor, why John McCain sealed all avenues concerning PoW/MIA and why John McCain sealed the NAMPoW Experience records from public inspection. In fact, all correspondence stopped after this send and Paul G. wrote back a one liner, "Do I know you?".
I grinned.
You will also see reference to Mark Smith ("..and Mark Smith, another wierdo who was never near McCain or our camps..") You can read about Maj. Mark Smith, Former PoW and holder of the Distinguished Service Cross at Army Ranger McDonald Valentine's website (click HERE). After the intro look for Major Smiths link.
A brief summation of a "wierdo" named Mark Smith. Smith who has more credentials than McCain and if Military service qualified one for the presidency ( it doesn't ) or time spent as pow ( it doesn't either) Mark Smith should be elected.
Zippo Smiths NVA Hunting Club
RVN - 1966 to 1973
C Co. 1/506th BN 101 ABN
03/70 to 10/70
WIA / POW
1972 / 1973
MAJOR MARK A. SMITH, UNITED STATES ARMY, RETIRED, served on active duty for over twenty one years. His primary area of orientation was Asia. He served at least part of every year from 1965 to 1972 in the 2nd Indo-China War as either a Non-Commissioned Officer or, later, as an Officer. He was captured after the Battle of Loc Ninh RVN on 8 April 1972 during Escape and Evasion (E & E). He was released from a jungle prison camp in Kratie, Cambodia on 12 February 1973. He was the first U.S. Army POW returned to the United States on 14 February 1973.
Major Smith was given mandatory retirement in May 1985. In September of that year he sued President Ronald Reagan and his predecessors for the abandonment of American military men and civilians during the war in Southeast Asia.
Major Smith's combat awards include; Distinguished Service Cross, Silver Star, Eight Bronze Stars and four Purple Hearts.
( Can I still call you Pablo? ) A few pictures stand out in my mind from the Vietnam PoW Experience.
Col. Ted Guy's is one. It was a pic just after shoot down in Laos and probably one taken for propaganda purposes. When Col. Guy saw the camera - he politely gave them the bird. He sent me that pic and unfortunately I can't find it. I know it's in my archives but remains in hiding - so be it.
The second is one you sent. The non-redacted version of you siting in a cell while your captors were trying to do propaganda shoots and you gave them the bird - that was airbrushed out by the States news media that published. That is also MIA or I'd include it with this reply. ( the bird: - for the blonds on board and barbijo in FL. the bird was not a parakeet or pigeon - the bird is an ancronym for the middle finger)
Wherefore, I want you to know from the start you are respected and admired for what you endured and for returning with Honor. I know you were with John McCain in a managerial position when he ran for President, I believe John McGrath (John McGrath is actually Mike - I know a John as well so often called Mike "John" ) also worked with McCain as well as Orson Swindle <-Swindle was misspelled by Joe and corrected here -> (SP) and a few others. That was your personal convictions and Lord knows more than earned right(s) to support who ever you chose.
All Navy Pilots who shared an experience.
You know where I stood. A no-one next to a monument - an ex USAF Fighter Jock named Col. Ted W. Guy. A man who endured yet has been chastised by many in NAMPoW for standing up for what he believed was truth. Because he believed - he became the groupie, sick, demented - a problem caused by his head injury's inflicted by the NVA while he was interned as PoW living a NO COMPROMISE HONOR existence in a hot cell in isolation most of the time. I know you worked with swiftvets & pows for the truth -along side others including one of Col. Ted Guy's best friends. Col. Larson.. the poster boy for those PoW's marched through the streets.
I know about Rathergate - and and Kopellgate - that sleezebag - but I also know how to read. Most of what you have stated were righteous issues many worked on nationally - not the few - as without the many who jumped in to hold up and support - no one would have walked any where, swiftvets, pow's for the truth, no one. It was ALL working together as ONE for a common cause that made the difference.
When I see you mention Schanberg helped snatch a victory I have to ask, given the statements about Col. Guy that came from NAM PoW's who were pissed off Col. Guy walked out of the circle, investigated; he felt betrayed and took a stand - are you making these statements because Schamberg investigated the "Public Record" available to all of what McCain has done to shut the doors on "live" pow mia and the entire issue, or because you belive your statement about the man who won the Pulitzer Prize for his 1975 coverage of political and social chaos in (very anti communist stance) Cambodia The man who's news reports and a best-selling book about his experiences in Southeast Asia became the basis for the Academy Award-winning film The Killing Fields. Paul was that anti US grunt or was tha an anti communist statement about what happened ex post facto the VN war?
Have you read Schambergs article on McCain's anti-PoW.MIA stance?
What he wrote is not hard to verify - specially McCains bullying and vilification of familiy members of those still missing or any one who brings up PoW/MIA and that men were left behind?
What do you fell about John McCains statement, "on the record in DC" that"
"McCain has said again and again that he has seen no "credible" evidence that more than a tiny handful of men might have been alive in captivity after the official prison return in 1973."
More than a tiny handful? Who's hand was used to measure the worth of just one life of any one held in captivity?
Pablo, ( in endearing names is not a nono now ) investigate. I asked that SwiftVets & PoW's for the Truth investigate - just Schanberg's statements, information readily available and report back with the truth.
My question to you is, WHY, if all came home ( but a tiny handful of men - John just happened to see - they are not my words ) WHY has he closed every door he could close on the issue so others who want to investigate can't or are totally frustrated, or as with some family members insulted, vilified and brought to tears.
Click Start Arrow to Play
McCain insults Delores Alfond, Chairperson of the National Alliance of Families for the Return of America's Missing, at the Senate Select Committee for POW/MIA Affairs in November 1992
Why? Why are records from the PoW experience SEALED - another work of John?
Click Start Arrow to Play
John McCain assaulted Jeannette Jenkins, cousin of an American missing in South Vietnam since May of 1965, by backhanding her against the wall. He then threatened a wheelchair-bound mother by raising his left arm as if to strike her before coming to his senses. He then pushed her wheelchair out of the way and abruptly continued down the hall.
The two speakers are Eleanor Apodaca, sister of a Vietnam War MIA, and Carol Hrdlicka, wife of a USAF pilot shot down in 1965. Photos demonstrate that Hrdlicka's husband was held in CAPTIVITY, yet he never returned after the war. She details her long experience with John McCain's betrayal of trust.
Let me print, as I am sure shortly, I will be on the alter, a few of the direct statements that were sent here about Col. Guy from the few NAM POW's who support "all came home". but first a word from Nam Historian Mike McGrath.
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 12:12:34 +0000
Col. Guy was not into the "untrue" statement syndrome. I can not prove that McCain did so some one needs to prove that he did not - else - Col. Guy's statement is gospel. He was John McCains SRO. Being "tortured" at the plantation, well, ain't no one going to convince me he was as two SRO's have stated NO ONE at the Plantation was. Col. Guy & Col. Larson.
I have the following emails with headers in tact. when they are archived it is in machine readable ( by a mail reader only ) format so without the mail reader they are impossible to read. In order to "un archive" they must be brought back into the email reader they came from - so no alteration of header or other is possible.
They were sent to me with a request to read and erase.
I didn't agree with the later, but will not publish where they came from unless you really want me too. Just a few as they make the point I mentioned above and in the letter below.. if you stand up for those you feel were abandoned... if you go after those you feel impeded their recovery - you will be character asassinated or other..
Of course this all poured in after Col. Guy passed away..
------------ one jab---------------------------
Some NamPoW's said: ( not in any special order )
Joe...As much as you and Swede love Ted, I had differences of opinion with Ted. I don't have time to tell you about the (almost) violent shouting matches I had with Ted. In the end, I concluded that the head injuries Ted suffered with the beating he took in captivity was still taking its toll the couple of years before he died.
In short, he was not stable, he made irrational accusations about McCain which are unsubstantiated by fact. Ted (and Mark Smith, another wierdo who was never near McCain or our camps), was never "privy" to sensitive information as he claimed. I doubt that Ted was ever "SRO over McCain,"
------------ two jabs-------------------------
The conspiracy groups really got to Ted and sold him a bill of goods.
------------three jabs------------------------
I'm just expressing my opinion that Ted was "not all there."
Something was wrong, and I think it started with the head injury in captivity.
Click Start Arrow to Play - This one takes a second!
------------ four--------------------------------------
I forgot about our exchange, thanks for the reminder. For example, on the faulty brain of Ted, take an objective look at the statement you sent: "Guy told folks that he suspected McCain left camp for six months...."
I don't mean to get into details tonight, but this exactly the type of horse *** that Ted was spreading....stupid baseless "suspicions" which impinge a man's integrity...and Ted didn't know what the hell he was talking about.
------------- I think these should be sufficient-------------------------
As to his dumb assertion that he had "facts," that some didn't get released, I could never get him to name a verifiable "fact" to me, a name of a single man, for example.
( Joes Note: If your reading this - please reread John's statement above -"... more than a tiny handful of men" - do you believe John? )
Enough banter...I have some data entry to work on. Thanks for the exchanges, and thanks for your great work on the Kerry issues.
I agree, enough banter. Public Record concerning the Schanberg article should be sufficient. Lets continue based on fact, facts that appear some want to keep swept under the rug.. Schanberg just glued them ( from public record and contact with McCain ) all together from the record. What say ye to just one simple question..
If none remained - why all the laws created by McCain to shut the doors to investigate? I think The Wall ( for one ) gave us that right to find out for ourselfs. The only nations that want things locked out of the publics eye are Dictatorial (Left or right wing) thank God we are no there yet, If some have there way - we would be held to the premise of royalty and serfs - where I must retort, Give me Liberty or Give me Death.
No need to brand me a fruit cake or other - what ever y'all dubbed Col. Guy - I'd be honored to have you lay on me.. I will take it as an Honor and Award and an affirmation that , SHITHOT Col. Guy - you did your job, you stood by those tiny hand full who were abandoned and I was proud to walk by your side for a moment in your life, you made a difference.
Finally
Who is Rod? Rod does a PoW/MIA news show on a radio station out of Colorado. He's one of the silent majority.
(( If I can't find your picture Pablo - tossing the bird at the cameras - despite all above - would you resend - I really respect what you did with that bird.. too bad - I think you and Col Guy would have settled the PoW/MIA issue in a shot time - if you had joined forces. At least you don't resort to name calling.. I resepct that.))
Now.. only wish I could find the Col.'s. pic in Laos tossing the bird.
I'd send it to John McCain.
Despite the circumstances, it was nice hearing from you once again, Stay well.. Paul.
And thats the way it is...
Joe
News & Views (Not Politically Correct, No Speil Chicker, No GrammaTics (Got Gramm a Tic Collar )
Not a Yes man.
Houston, TX
bcc: sydney schanberg
Lets not forget Matt Maupin & Scott Speichter and the recent SEALMIA(s)
To the men and women who came home without Arms or Legs or both or other...
You are our hero's too. You have been sentenced to a life of Honor among many for your never ending sacrifice.. just wanted you to know as I dwell on PoW/MIA I dwell on what you gave so that I can print how I feel and see it -- you are NOT FORGOTTEN!
Piece written by:: Gerald 'Beak' Atkinson, CDR USN (Ret.)
So, where does that leave us? You NAM-POW leaders have set in stone your own set of deceptions concerning the behavior of John McCain as a POW. John McCain knows what he did. You know what he did. And no one told the truth. Now you are stuck with it. And you have stuck our nation with it. As Sir Walter Scott wrote, "Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive! Now that Carl Rove and the Republican spinmeisters are promoting the 'herohood' of John McCain, you have no one to blame but yourselves. It would have been so easy for John McCain to come clean and admit, very early on, that he gave military information to the enemy in order to obtain medical treatment for his very serious shootdown injuries, a level of treatment that essentially no other POW received. He could then have been 'forgiven' over time by the American public. But no, you kept on generating obfuscations, allowing John McCain to hide under the truly heroic efforts of some of you, and creating the 'Mythical John McCain.'
Each of you has demanded that I apologize to John McCain for the 'slander' that I have brought against him. That so-called 'slander' is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. It is you who should apologize. To your NAM-POW compatriots, to those of us who also fought alongside you in the Vietnam War, to your Naval Academy classmates, and most importantly to the American people.
As I said above, Beak's In! Let the fun begin!
The Mythical John McCain: A Conversation with the Leadership of the Vietnam War POWs The Second Round
Piece written by:: Gerald 'Beak' Atkinson, CDR USN (Ret.)
According to the 'P.O.W.' book [pp. 566-574], Ted Guy was transferred to the reopened Plantation on 25 November 1970. [There] torture remained much in vogue [from the time it reopened in 1970 through early 1972, the year before the POWs returned home]. [Guy] remained isolated, but was now in a cell from which he was able to at least see other Americans…SRO Guy found that the bulk of the prisoner population was enlisted men and that they wanted nothing so much as strong leadership. He promulgated policies virtually identical to the BACK US policy Jim Stockdale had established at Hoa Lo years earlier, but urged a gradual buildup of the resistance campaign in order to soften the Vietnamese reaction."
Ted Guy was tortured during January/February 1972 [only 14 months before all of our POWs were returned home]. The torture chamber was filthy. For the first three days and nights Guy was allowed no sleep. He was stripped naked, locked in leg irons, and made to lie on his stomach. A guard stood on the backs of his legs, Cheese kept a foot on his neck, pinning his head to the floor, and another guard flogged him with a rubber hose. The beating lasted a long time. Guy lost control of his bodily functions, he vomited, and when the pain became more than he could bear, he screamed. Rags were crammed into his mouth and the flogging continued."
"In the long days and nights that followed, torture guards who enjoyed their work took turns inflicting long beatings with their fists … During one stretch Guy was kept kneeling for approximately eighteen hours. His knees were swollen to the extent that he could not pull his trouser legs over them. When he refused to author a confession of crimes, he was made to kneel again, this time atop an iron bar…The torture ended for Guy when after ten days and nights, he produced an acceptable confession, an apology, and an agreement to do anything that was asked of him. Then he was asked to write a letter of 'solidarity' and encouragement to the Vietnam Veterans Against the War. When he balked at this, he was ordered back onto his knees and offered another round of torture. Unable to tolerate the prospect, he yielded…Although Ted Guy did not receive the most brutal torture dished out by the North Vietnamese - such as that recorded at the Zoo by the Cubans - he withstood brutal torture for much longer than the average at one of the most brutal camps, such as the Briarpatch." Although not a Medal of Honor winner, it appears that Ted Guy and James Stockdale had parallel experiences in Hanoi.
So, why have the NAM-POW leaders forsaken Ted Guy, one of their own, in favor of James Stockdale - who was not there when John McCain traded military information for medical treatment while held in the North Vietnamese hospital? Why has Ted Guy been thrown under the bus and James Stockdale lionized? Could it be because the NAM-POW leadership has become 'politicized' and bray into the wind about their 'hero,' John McCain to an unknowing American public?
Why would they disown and attempt to discredit and disgrace one of their own - Ted Guy - a POW who has been dead for nearly a decade -- in order to establish cover for John McCain? For shame! But now, Ted Guy has risen from the grave to tell the truth about John McCain. And whether the NAM-POW leadership likes it or not, one's credibility is based on TRUTH, not heat and emotion in the midst of a political battle - no matter how crucial the outcome!
Piece written by: Gerald 'Beak' Atkinson, CDR USN (Ret.)
In response to the second question, "If it wasn't mentioned back in 1973, why is someone suddenly discovering a 'recollection' 35 years later? The time to make those sorts of statements was after they returned," This is easy to answer -- the pathway is clear. Ted Guy had no quarrel with McCain during their years together at the Plantation. As explained in the two original essays on the subject (see above), Ted became an activist in the POW/MIA movement years after their homecoming and came to believe that Senator McCain had betrayed the MIAs by joining Senator John Kerry during the early 1990s in 'squashing' the POW/MIA matter. It was then that Ted Guy gathered the 'details' of John McCain's early behavior at the North Vietnamese hospital, which was readily available by declassification of documents by the Pentagon in the 1987 time frame.
When Ted Guy learned that McCain was making a run for the presidency in 2000, he sent me a package which contained the 'details' of McCain's 'interviews with the communist correspondents in Hanoi. He had found me though a chain that included ADM Moorer's public defense of Bob Stumpf, RADM C.A. 'Mark' Hill's public exposition of it in his 'corner' on my website, and my public documentation of it in The Washington Times. Ted Guy had no intention of 'trashing' McCain's reputation. But when he learned that McCain was running for the nomination for president in 2000 he knew he had to speak out. Ted Guy swore me to secrecy unless McCain won the South Carolina primary in 2000. I kept that promise when Bush won the nomination. Ted Guy died of cancer in 1999.
I did not take Ted Guy's word for granted -- that is, as fact -- in my public exposition of this matter. I spent hours and hours pouring over both the 'P.O.W' book and the 'Honor Bound' book -- over 1,400 pages in all -- read every word and paper-clipped all the pertinent pages. I found that, if one took the time to follow the time-sequenced trail of each of the principal 'actors,' in the saga, McCain indeed behaved as I have described. Both books back up what is published in this Blog, beginning with McCain's own public confession in his 'U.S. News & World Report' article on the subject in 1973, that he 'gave military information in exchange for medical treatment' at the North Vietnamese hospital. All Ted Guy did was provide the shocking details of what that information was.
Consequently, the 35-year-delay in this 'recollection' is due simply to the random set of circumstances surrounding this matter and the fact that we now know that Ted Guy -- the decade-or-so old dead guy -- has spoken from the grave on a very important matter of John McCain's character and his fitness to lead this nation as we near the next 'Social Moment' in our history.
Thus, a close look at the official record reveals that John McCain indeed 'Sang Like a Canary' to his North Vietnamese captors during his stay in their hospital from four days after his capture (26 October 1967) until around the middle of December 1967 -- at which time he was transferred to the Plantation prison complex. This record should put to rest the TRUTH of the matter. The NAM-POW Leadership is wrong, dead wrong on this matter -- Ted Guy was right.
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